Will 108 MPGe Entice You to Look at an Electric Vehicle When You Consider Your Next Car Purchase?

Sam January 6, 2013 at 03:40 pm

Nice idea, car is expensive and you can't go far if you want to take a trip. Get it up to 200 miles per charge and I'll seriously consider it!

Andrew January 6, 2013 at 03:52 pm

I'd consider it if the price tag (before any incentives) falls below 10,000 $US.
Otherwise, if it can't go 300+ miles per charge, and charge in under 5 minutes, it's vastly over-priced.

Glen Hartshorn January 6, 2013 at 04:22 pm

Lets keep in mind that electric cars are a work in progress. They're not for everyone but the majority of driving is done in short commutes or local errand running. What I get from the article is that another step has been made in progress toward desired goals. We won't always be able to drive SUVs the size of semi truck cabs and thumb our noses at over use of oil.

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 04:50 pm

The Facts are "We have to watch the budgets" with a normal family, money is tight. A new car is rare for the 80 % of us in the first place. Cost drives our purchase long after the sale. My current car gets 38 MPG, is paid for and I don’t pay a high insurance cost. Even my truck is a good example. Lets do some math!
My F150 compared to your Fiat save the planet and your profit go-cart Truck 1999 F150, cost 3500.00 initial MPG 22 X 11k a year = 1,560 in gas Insurance 67.00 / Month = 804.00 Maintenance 14.99 X 6 per year = 90.00 Parts in 5 years (WH , hoses, alternator, starter) 386.00 + lbr 155.00 = 541 And with tires I’m up to 6975.00 for 5 years for total cost of ownership! How is your plastic Duracell wannabe death trap more efficient than my F150?.... O I forgot you include Market Profit in your equations As far as Green space… remember, if we all have to work 5 extra years to provide the backbone funds to purchase these overpriced cars think about the pollution from the factories, not my sole F150 sitting on my farm.

Christopher H Lynt January 6, 2013 at 04:57 pm

Bravo! If one considers how much one spends on gasoline, oil changes and filters, engine air filters, emissions inspections, and so forth per year, versus how much the electricity used by an EV for the same number of miles costs, one can find that the premium paid for an EV is worth it. For example, assuming a 75 mile per day 2-way commute 365 days per year, and a full 24kWh charge for the Leaf every night, the Leaf costs about $2.64 per day, or $936.60 per year in electricity. A Nissan Altima (average 22 mpg), using the same driving numbers costs $4,977.27 per year in gasoline at $4/gallon. The range per charge has to be carefully considered to see if it fits one's needs - most people overestimate their daily driving mileage which is on average around 40 miles in the US they say. The lifetime of the batteries and battery replacement costs at the end of that time, perhaps 8 to 10 years is another factor to contemplate. As for size and comfort, 2012 Nissan Leaf is just about as big as my wife's Toyota Prius, and a bit more comfortable. I think it is great to see so many other car makers getting on board with EVs. BTW, never having to buy gasoline from big oil is...priceless!

Gordon Cameron Goheen January 6, 2013 at 05:08 pm

I bought a Fiat some years ago. Before 10K miles the frame broke in half and it used almost as much iol as gas. It was truly a piece of crap. Now that they own Chrysler who is also reknowned for crappy cars I don't think they will be any better.

Chris W. January 6, 2013 at 05:18 pm

87 mile range higher than all other US electric vehicles? Tesla begs to differ.

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 05:23 pm

I forgot to mention, that with the total cost of ownership from my Versa, I doubt the Fiat will win in the end. I still think there is a 10K profit for them.
Versa = 38MPG (With my driving) 7900.00 total cost at purchase Oil Changes X 2 a year 30.00 I have had it for 3 years, total milage 28000, thats 800 gallons @ 3.25 = $2,600 in fuel (or 866.00 a year) Tires were free from dealership so I am at $10,530 Why bother handing over another 10-15k for efficiency when I’m totally sufficient

Christopher H Lynt January 6, 2013 at 05:40 pm

You are assuming a $3.12 a gal much cheaper than the price here in N.Va. $3.60 regular, peaked at $4.00 last year, anyone think it will be below $4 a gal long? That 11k miles costs $286 in electricity for my Leaf (100 m costs $2.64 at 11 cents a kWh) so saves $1274 a year in energy using your numbers. Service on that Ford smoker, well Ford says oil change every 5k miles or twice a 11k year, so for people who pay someone to do the work est. about $100 per year? Emissions inspections here in VA. $30 every 2 years. No tune-ups, egr. valves, sensors and brake work? With EVs the brakes are regenerative so they last many more miles. Point is your 5 year numbers are not typical. Just the savings in gasoline/energy prices for 5 years would be $6370 using your numbers vs. a Nissan Leaf for 11k miles. Of course, a Nissan Leaf is not exactly a replacement for a Ford pickup truck, assuming you use it as a truck sometimes and not as some sort of commuter vehicle. BTW, MotorTrend says the F150 gets between 11 and 16 miles per gallon city driving, and depending on which model you get, could cost between $24 and $52 thousand dollars to purchase (2013 F150). Cost of ownership per year for a 2012 F150 see: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/ford/f_150/styleside_short_bed_regular_cab_pickup/1504/cost_of_ownership/ Look up a 2012 Nissan Leaf while your there, it is actually less than the 2012 F150.

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 05:41 pm

Do the research. Example:
Nissan Leaf 35,000 Annual Fuel costs 936.00 (Listed above) 4680.00 5 Year total with no failures! 39,680 6 Years (Assume the worst and the manufacture warning about 80% loss on life of battery) Add $15,000 for the new battery = $54,680 My 6 year F150 at 8-9k looks far better on my wallet and my family food needs.

Christopher H Lynt January 6, 2013 at 05:53 pm

2012 Leaf cost of ownership from Motortrend: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/nissan/leaf/sl_hatchback/3108/cost_of_ownership/ One does not have to replace the battery when it still has 80% capacity, I charge mine to 80% to extend battery life and that suits my driving purposes just fine, local driving on short trips. But assume you want the full 100% capacity of battery, you could replace cells instead of the whole battery. Also, you did not assume any value/market for the battery with 80% capacity. It is also hard to estimate what a total replacement of the battery will cost once they are being manufactured in the US, and scaled up for more and more drivers, about 9,800 Leafs sold in 2012, about 9,700 sold in 2011 in the US.

Christopher H Lynt January 6, 2013 at 05:56 pm

PS: the Leaf battery is warrantied for 8 years/100,000 miles, and any premature capacity loss will be covered under the warranty, as just announced last week by Nissan.

Christopher H Lynt January 6, 2013 at 06:04 pm

PS: the EPA sticker estimate of Annual Electricity Cost is $600. Here in N.Va. a kWh of electricity costs 11 cents, and the EPa estimates 34 kWh's per 100 miles. So, 3470 kWhs for that 11,000 mile per year driving, or $411.40 at 11 cents per kWh.

Christopher H Lynt January 6, 2013 at 06:07 pm

National Geographic has an article about the market for used EV batteries at: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2012/11/121116-second-life-for-used-electric-car-batteries/

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 06:55 pm

@ Christopher
Let me be clear. I don’t buy new. Its too much a waste on our money. I know that the F150 in 2012 will be 1/2 the price in 2014. There is where I start. I did buy new when the cars took a lesson from 1974 and tried to match the 40MPG of the Toyota corolla of that timeframe (God Im glad they will go faster than 55) The main question is will 108MPG make me buy? sure, it will, if the numbers work out over a typical 5 year span.

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 06:55 pm

the leaf will simply not last beyond a five year mark without a new battery
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/136894-will-high-mileage-nissan-leafs-need-costly-battery-replacements-soon So my 1999 is still running strong, and yes your right, it probably will start smoking. My 4.6 will cost 1200.00 for a rebuild and its new again. I just cant get over how many people throw away 10 - 20k just to have a shiny car. I MAINTAIN my cars myself, lets put that to the math If my F150 was a lemon. (Purely not true) Cost of used truck 5000.00 11MPG X 11 a year @ 3.65 a year in fuel = $3,650.00 1st year of bad luck New front Brakes (39.99) and a New EGR sensor (54.00) a bad fuel pump (91.99) 300.00 in labor = 485.00 + oil changes, and 2 tires = 605.00 total first year $9,255 2nd year of bad luck = $6303.00 Blown Transmission 2400.00, new battery and starter 253.00 and lets not forget gas $3,650.00 3rd year of bad luck = $5350.00 Towing 155.00, Door fell off 795.00, Rear chunk rebuild 750.00 and lets not forget gas 3650.00 4th year of bad luck = $7929.00 tail light broken after fiat ran into me 89.00, driveshaft fell out 455.00, transmission blew again 2400.00 headliner fell off 215.00 heater core failed 1,120.00 and lets not forget gas 3650.00

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 06:55 pm

5th year of bad luck =$ 7,123.99
Wiper broke 9.99, tires 489.00, brake ABS failed computer replaced 350.00, radiator exploded 225.00, transmission failed again! 2400.00 and lets not forget gas 3650.00 Total Nightmare $35,960 so if I buy the Nissan leaf and never have anything break I will expect 36,630 MSRP including fuel. I still beat the costs! And saved 670.00

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 07:20 pm

True facts about my old truck. The engine doesn’t smoke, passes epa tests every year. I have replaced the plug wires twice, 1 starter, 1 starter relay, water pump, heater hose, tires all the way around twice, brakes replaced once, alternator, belts, and oil. that’s it! (Exept my electronic window switch needs replaced) Not bad for 13 years old

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 08:23 pm

Tesla, , If you can afford one, to those that can, Can I have 20k? I , i just want to blow some money as well please.

R January 6, 2013 at 09:42 pm

If the Prius is a lunch box, a Fiat 500 is a snack sack …
It’s nothing more than a go kart with a roof. GOOD luck in traffic! Go JD Gators!

Bill smith January 6, 2013 at 09:47 pm

Count me in the truck club. I'm a cattle rancher. It's a 60 mile round trip to basic supplies and a couple stoplights, 140 mile round trip with about 1/2 being gravel roads for "normal" stores (like Walmart). Even if I didn't need a truck, just a basic trip to town would be cutting it a bit too close for me. Don't know about the mileage if I'd turn on the heater, and listen to the radio, etc. These would be perfect for town people though. I wish they would push efficient diesel engines more. Even with all the emissions junk taking away several MPG, and reliability..., 3/4 and 1 ton trucks weighing 6000 lbs + can get over 20MPG on the highway not loaded, and have the capability of towing 10 tons if needed. Imagine what a small one could do (well, I guess VW does that, and some others, but I've never seen one around, no dealers). Plus biodiesel is a better alternative to gas/ethanol combos anyway (IMO).

R January 6, 2013 at 09:50 pm

Pardon me ...
How long will you keep your elecrtric and what will happen when the battery cells require replacement? This is one cost I NEVER hear discussed, unless one reads what happened when the Telsas bricked up on thier owners ...

R January 6, 2013 at 10:07 pm

Repost since Telsas were mentioned
Pardon me ... How long will you keep your electric and what will happen when the battery cells require replacement? This is one cost I NEVER hear discussed, unless one reads what happened when the Telsas bricked up on thier owners ...

R January 6, 2013 at 10:09 pm

So the car lasts 100k? Most vehicles beat that by a factor of 2.5...

JPWhite January 6, 2013 at 11:07 pm

So you want a new car for less than $10k. Oh and it would be nice of it can go 300+ miles on a charge and recharge in under 5 minutes. Oh and it would also be nice if incentives reduced e price even further. And let's be clear you'd simply 'consider it' if the above conditions were met, you might actually still not go ahead and buy one. Geez Louise.
Sometimes I'm floored by unreasonable expectations.

JPWhite January 6, 2013 at 11:18 pm

@R
No the car will go further than 100,000 miles. That's when the warranty runs out, as is the case with many vehicles. Just because the warranty is out doesn't mean the car fails. It could, but that's true of any car.

JPWhite January 6, 2013 at 11:24 pm

LEAF's in northern states are holding up remarkably well. A driver in the Pacific NW has 60,000 miles on his LEAF already and minimal degradation on his battery. The 'average' battery life is 10 years, some will be more some will be less. Climate, annual mileage and charging/driving habits are the factors that affect the battery life positively or negatively.
As with most things YMMV

Alfonzo January 6, 2013 at 11:58 pm

Engines, Combustable or not... have come a long way. in only 20 years the EFI systems and controls on gas burners have produced some amazing specs. (320 HP from a 4 cyl) Not to mention Diesel torque numbers. The main thing for us to remember is power versus cost. a 5 lb engine that pulls 30 times its weight... France is doing some amazing things with compressed air. Ceramic engines remove friction and carbon waste. I can only imagine if we tap Magentic in the future. I havent seen a battery that lasts more than 8 years. I have a 64 mustang that needs a replacement when oil is removed from the supply line or the think green preps hail it as a bad way of travel and fine me for owning it. Its sad when profit is the true reason for MPG (Use my fake over stated ownership lemon costs above 35k versus a new leaf immune to breakdowns 36k) and try to justify it. you cant!

Alfonzo January 7, 2013 at 12:26 am

ok so none of us the US will ever benifit from those that cant see beyond profits, taxes, or just plane old fixation on living in ones wallet ...
http://www.mdi.lu/english/index.php

Calin VILT January 7, 2013 at 05:37 am

Interesting disputes ! There are important differences from US to EU. Electric car are for major EU towns with traffic jam, pollution, etc. My be also for New York. Do not forget that researchers are working for a new generation of batteries with 25 times bigger capacities (from 160 to 4000 wh/kg!!). Also the performance of the eV are increasing rapidly. In a few years also prices will became decent. In all major town we need smaller car for all members of the family. It is a free market and each one can decide what he want. In our office we have a Mitsubishi eMiev and is an excellent car, also Opel Ampera is a interesting car for the next years TOTALLY independent from millage point of vue !!