Greg, there are similarities between the two organizations already. The thing is, the military is a publicly owned enterprise and the Boy Scouts are private. Were/are you involved with either one?

I was part of the Boy Scouts as a kid for a while. I'm not involved now, and I know I won't be as long as they continue to discriminate.

I agree with Rebecca's comment that it's a bit tricky since the BSA are private. Seems to me that they should have the right to make any kind of limitation on who can join. That doesn't mean that I agree with their choice but it is their choice to make. We can choose to support them or not.

John, were you a Boy Scout? My father and three brothers were. I have no idea how the organization will respond to this. What do you think they will do? we know what you will do.

John - I agree with you 110%. As a Christian nation we need to take a hard stand. I'll also boycott Intel chips.

Homosexuals are Christians, too. Jesus didn't discriminate against who could follow him, either. He was quite the radical by giving non-Jews a way to follow God. The core history of Christianity is about accepting those who are considered outcasts.

I love how these Christian organizations pick and choose which parts of the Bible they're going to follow. For example, Jesus spoke directly against divorcing and remarrying. He clearly said that to do so violates the "Thou shalt not commit adultery" commandment. So does the BSA also discriminate against anyone who is in that situation? If it is going to claim to be a Christian organization, it seems that it should at least follow all of Jesus's teachings.

BSA is not a Christian organization. Duty to God is part of the Scout oath, and all faiths are welcome. Perhaps the confusion lies in that many packs and troops are chartered through Christian churches.

Bonnie, I have struggled with whether to even bother getting into this argument with a stranger, but I feel compelled to remind/inform you that the first of the Amendments to The U.S. Constitution, collectively known as the "Bill of Rights," states clearly that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This not only guaranteed freedom of belief but also ensured that no single religion would be given privileges over others.
So, no, America is NOT a Christian nation.
This is yet another subject that makes me glad to have a daughter, although to be honest, I wouldn't have put a son in the Scouts either. My husband and I already know how to hike, camp, fish, build fires, and instill morals in our child (morals that don't include hatred/discrimination for ANY reason). And the ONLY time in my life I have ever been physically assaulted by ANYONE was by an eagle scout, so their track record for helping mold boys into men is pretty abysmal in my experience.

YEAH!
Lets start the boycott today!
Not only against that though, lets boycott everything that is shunned in scripure, like the great game of foot ball, polyester, and king crab! Why pick and choose right? Lets take this christian nation right back to the dark ages where the bible belongs!!!

Rebecca, I regret every day that I was not a Boy Scout. I have been a scout leader for six years. I am not sure the BSA will do anything. That is not what they are about. They are about building men of God, and Greg, that is however they recognize God. All faiths are represented in the BSA, and to my recollection, none of them advocate homosexuality. Risa, I am sorry you had a bad experience with one Eagle Scout. I guarantee none of the young men I know with that rank would do anything but help you if you needed help. The thing is, folks, most people nowadays don't give a tinker's damn about what you do in your private life. We are basically sick of your agenda to take us beyond toleration to acceptance and ultimately advocacy. Sorry. The Supreme Court ruled in the BSA's favor, and we intend to take advantage of that until the next knucklehead files a lawsuit. I want my son to learn how to camp, and to do a good turn, and to have fun. My guess is getting the "homosexuality awareness merit badge" would not be at the top of his list of what is fun.

I frequently hear Christians claim that the United States is a Christian nation, or that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a Christian nation. When they bother to offer evidence it's usually some McCarthy-era addition to our pledge or our money, or some quote (often bogus) from a speech or a letter by one of the Founding Fathers.

Think about this for a second: If you were starting a Christian nation, how would you go about it? Would you make oblique references to "Great Powers" and "Guiding Hands" in obscure speeches and letters, or would you fill your foundational documents with references to Jesus Christ and the Bible?

The Founding Fathers were brilliant men. They spent months and months working on the Constitution. They were very, very careful about what they wrote, discussing and debating every passage at great length. It seems to me that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they would have said so somewhere in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had no reason to be vague. There was no ACLU, no "Activist judges." If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written:

God Almighty, in Order to form a true Christian Nation, establish Divine Justice, insure adherence to His Laws, provide for the defense of His Church, promote His Word, and secure His Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, has led us to ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Instead they wrote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The words "Jesus" "Christ" "Bible" "God" and even "Creator" appear nowhere in the Constitution ("Endowed by their Creator" is in the Declaration of Independence.) Just how stupid would someone have to be to create a Christian nation then forget to mention Christ in the Constitution?

Also notice that nobody ever asks what the Founding Mothers might have said. There were no Founding Mothers. The Founders were all men; White men, many of them slave owners. White male slave owners who may or may not have been Christians, but explicitly forbade any kind of religious test for office. In other words, you have a far stronger case if you'd like to argue that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a racist and sexist nation.

I think you can make a good case that some or even most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but it's absurd to think that they wanted to impose that belief on the nation, and even more absurd to imagine we should be bound by their prejudices.

Leigh, I hope you will consider Scouting for your son if he shows interest. Even though I disagree with the policy, I believe that our family has greatly benefited from our Scouting experiences, and our sons have grown and matured through the leadership opportunities available through Scouting. We don't sit around at Scout meetings bashing gays. We spend our time planning and going on camping trips, learning scouting skills, performing service projects, etc.

If the sole focus of objecting to BSA is in the matter of GAY admissions, why hasn't an alternate organization been formed by now? Contact INTEL and take their funding as a core.

Those who are DETERMINED to force your own views on others as a symbol of the tolerance you claim to champion really rings hollow. Keeping your children out if they show interest, well a as parent that’s your prerogative.

Thanks for this link. From what I understand BSA is revisiting it again and The Associated Press reported that the organization has agreed to consider a new policy for 2013 that would allow local Scouting groups to decide for themselves whether to accept gay members and leaders, but no official decision will likely be made until May 2013.

Here is the link with that info...
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/06/07/496004/boy-scouts/

Our mindless involvements with prejudiced organizations impact our children in that when they do become aware of these issues and our lack of response to them, they see what we stand for and what we support.

I have talked to my son about this. If he wanted to join, I would not hold him back.

El - I couldn't agree more.

No, they aren't bigots.
They just have a core belief you don’t care for and the way you handle your descent of their position says more about yourself than “them”.

RE: "...the way you handle your [dissent] of their position says more about yourself than 'them'."

Indeed. It says that I'm not a bigot, and that I have no patience for bigotry.

Actually you juist might be

If the implication is that folks who support gay rights are anti-Christian, my response is that the anti-Christians are those who justify their bigotry by waving the Bible around.

The Boy Scouts may have a problem with gay people, but they seemed to have easily accommodated predators and pedophiles for years in their organization. An investigation by the LA Times showed the abusers moved around more than did pedophile priests, going from troop to troop, sometimes in different states. It's a disturbing story, and situation. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-boyscouts-20120805-m,0,5822319.story

YES - there are "fallen men and women" everywhere in society.

And the sad fact is, if one were to dig very far, I'm certain we could find GAY abusers too.

R is right. There are predators everywhere. It is up to parents to train their kids to recognize and report them while parents themselves keep a sharp eye on their kids. Predators should be castrated.

NJ4America is a bit of a troll. Keep in mind that there may not a whole lot of meaningful feedback forthcoming.

"This backfired big time." - - - Really? Then why is it that they are publicly backpedaling now?

There is no backpedaling. They are clarifying their gifts/donations. And Chic-Fil-A's all over America sold out on the day proposed to show support. Their business since has improved. And the day the gays showed up to protest, no one cared. Even the gays didn't show up...only three people at Hamilton Mill location and they left after 10 minutes. So, yep....backfired big time.

If I had a son, I would not allow him to join the Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts until they took measures to make sure predators can't be involved. So far, they haven't done this, and I wouldn't knowingly put my child within reach of a possible abuser.

Rebecca:
I'm glad you broached the subject of predators as it was missing from the discussion in this thread. And I concur with your stand. As a parent, it's not about who's gay...I could care less. That said, although predators can be found anywhere, the BSA is a magnet for them for obvious reasons.

How do you do that Rebecca? Most wives can't even tell if their own husband is an abuser. Abusers hide their practices well.

The BSA has some of the strongest policies on youth protection. Leaders are investigated when they apply and there after are required to take a biannual youth protection course. The boys have to take a youth protection course annually, which is, frankly, quite blunt as to the predators that are out there and how they operate. The truth is, unless someone has been convicted of a crime, they will likely pass a background check. That is for the BSA, the GSA, and any and all youth activities, including sports. We take it very seriously.

So what you are saying is the BSA needs to be tolerant and inclusive of homosexuality while ensuring none of them are predators..........is that right?

Eve:
I have to admit I'm not educated enough to understand much about pedophelia but if a man finds someone of the same sex attractive regardless of age I would assume being heterosexual is a stretch. Again, I am no expert but not because I'm uneducated...just uneducated in reference to pedophelia...so I stand corrected if what you are saying is true. BTW....I think most people are tolerant and accepting of the LGBT population...but those who are not I would necessarily say they are douchebags...and calling those who may not be as accepting bigots doesn't help your cause. It just makes you look angry, but I do like the content and presentation of your post.....

I guess I'm not convinced there is no correlation now Eve. I found article after article that resembled this one. http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=is02e3
If you have more credible sources please post for my reference.

Excellent Greg...by your very definition that makes you a bigot correct? Sounds like you're not tolerant of those who don't share the same beliefs or opinions as you....and you sound a bit angry about it. Just fitting the definition right now.

I freely admit to being intolerant of intolerance.

I appreciate your candor Greg. So you would agree that your intolerance is bigotry? I'm just using your definition. And in reality, using your definition, we can all be classified as bigots for some reason in our lives as there are things we are intolerant of. I'm ok with that.

Although I can appreciate a healthy debate, I respectfully ask that you two try to continue this conversation without throwing around heated words and arguing about semantics. Let's play nice or not play at all, okay boys?

Hey Leigh, if you don't like it, don't read it.

Leigh:
There are no heated words. You must live in a bubble. We have a point-counterpoint discussion going on here that I consider healthy. I have no ill will towards Greg. Not sure why you would inject yourself into this other than you have nothing else value added to offer in the thread. By the way, I mean that with the utmost respect....

Well, I wrote the article and started the conversation so I like to keep up with what goes down on here with the comments. From past experience, conversations like these can quickly spiral into name calling and nastiness. I just wanted to make sure that this thread stays respectful. By all means, carry on your debate gentleman. See that, I called you gentlemen instead of boys. I can play nice too.

Thank you Leigh

No problem, John B. Thanks for reading and commenting.

I've been informed by a professional writer friend that the definition I posted above is not a good definition. Here's a better one from Webster. "A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."

When the BSA kicks out a mother running a troop because she's gay, that is an injustice caused by bigotry. When you react to right an injustice, that does not make you a bigot.

Injustice (from Webster) "absence of justice : violation of right or of the rights of another".

Now, you can say that the gay mother doesn't have a particular right to be involved in the BSA. If you change it to "black mother" would you feel the same way? As a private organization they aren't legally required to allow blacks, either, but it would certainly be seen as an injustice and bigoted if they tried to exclude someone based on race. The BSA knows it would be an injustice, which is why they don't exclude based on race.

We're in the midst of a culture change around homosexuality just like we had (and still have) with race. It's going to be a bumpy road until it becomes generally accepted as an injustice to discriminate based on sexual orientation.

apparently the Scouts also don't know how to spell

Eve......I did not say I was a good speeller. How do you spell accomplishment? Accomplishment is a long word, made up of many letters. That is entirely appropriate, because there are many different qualities and values that go into creating accomplishment. Just as it takes fourteen letters to spell the word “accomplishment,” so too does it require at least as many positive values to bring about any worthwhile living. Everything you do begins as a thought in your mind. Although you won’t make things happen solely by thinking about them, with your actions you are constantly making things happen in your world, and your thoughts direct those actions.
The BSA has helped build the future leaders of this country by combining educational activities and lifelong values with fun. The Boy Scouts of America believes — and, through over a century of experience, knows — that helping youth is a key to building a more conscientious, responsible, and productive society.

Thanks, Eve, I was going to say something similar.

What happened to society that one day we started using "LGBT" like we're talking about normalcy? I always felt something strange about the guy dressing as a woman in the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Eve:
Like I said, understanding pedophilia is not my strong suit so I appreciate the education. But when you say most pedophilias are straight, white, men...how many of them do you think hide behind that very veil but are really nothing but predators pretending to be something they are not....like straight. I can't buy the fetish thing. Honestly, pedophilia is a result of someone who's wiring is completely crossed up. To call it disturbing would be an understatement.

Eve,
You win the award for most intelligent comment of the day. Thanks for this.

Yup...Grant has a copyright on being angry...no doubt.

So one could then infer that the BSA is actually more tolerant of Muslims than many posters here... interesting.

What does this have to do with Boy Scouts? I miss the point. I think if I put up a recipe, someone would find a way to slam President Obama, his wife or his children.

Because a byproduct of the current BSA policy is actually fulfilling the suggestion made by President Obama "to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as THEY see fit." .

Which oddly enough, is spot on concerning the focus of gay presence.

Allison Knight
Responding to R,
No, you can't infer that BSA is "more tolerant of Muslims." In fact, we went to a meeting and one of our neighbors wore an "anti-Muslim" t-shirt by Hank Williams to let us know how he feels. This is just ignorance. Straight Christians believe, like Muslims, that man is created for a woman and vice versa and there are no exceptions.

So what about DARWIN? If the Female/Male thing from religions' point of view is intolerant, how about his scientific theories?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism

Grant, no one is putting you down for your sexual preference. That's your business. You being gay doesn't mean you lose freedom. It's just that scouts don't allow you guys joining their club. Why would you want to?

He he ... Cute, I see what you tried to do there!

Apparently you missed the part where I wrote "That said , like the Klan , the Neo Nazis ,the American Family Association and other similar groups the Scouts is a private organization and as long as they exist independent of the government as a private organization they get to choose their membership based on whatever criteria they wish to apply"

Thanks , and have a splendid day

James, setting aside your sarcasm, you might want to look at this story to learn what went wrong with predators, none of them homosexual, in the Boy Scouts. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-boyscouts-20120805-m,0,5822319.story

@Rebecca, how can you claim a male that likes to have sex with boys is not a homosexual? That is ridiculous. They may be pedophiles too, but they are still homosexual. Also, the word homosexual does not appear in the article you posted. What in it led you to believe that men who abuse boys are not considered homosexual?

I assure you there are gay pedophiles in the world. They even have their own organization. If the BSA were to allow gay scout leaders is it a stretch to think that the gay pedophiles would want to become scout leaders? Can't you understand parents and the BSA wanting to protect their boys from these men?

James:
I share your same concern about how we view homesexuality and pedophilia. I don't believe there is no correlation. There are studies that show a direct correlation and other studies that show no correlation. In my mind there has to be some correlation. That said, and in defense of Rebecca, she did state in a post north of these that she would shield her son from the BSA due to predators (pedophiles) not homosexuals as she see no link.

I was unaware they are a hate group as you claim Eve..geez...cite your reference for the claim...Again, the more I researched the more I found much the same information that there is very much a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. I'll post more references or you can just google. In the interim, please post your references to counter. What sources shall we use that you consider credible.

And even if FRC is considered a hate group do they lose their first amendment rights?...not sure you can classify the post as inappropriate...more knee jerk because you might not like what you hear. Again, the more I delve into the topic you will see as many articles that associate as you do that disassociate. Just saying. Not looking for a fight.

From your own link:
Medical professionals agree that the majority of known pedophiles are heterosexual.

The only person in the article who said that there is any link between homosexuality and pedophilia was the cardinal in the catholic church. Go figure...

Well Duh Amy...that's why I put up the link. And if you followed my posts I explained I was no resident expert on pedophiles and stated it was a fair and balanced article. But thank you so much for turning the bulb on for me....you have something against Catholics? Sounds intolerant if you ask me.

“Medical professionals agree that the majority of known pedophiles are heterosexual.”

Makes sense, because the largest part of society as a whole is… heterosexual!

Captain Obvious takes flight once again.

Homosexual behavior is a choice just like pedophilia is a choice. They are both wrong, no matter how you look at it. A 1st grader could tell you that you can't attach two bolts together. A bolt goes with a nut to actually work. Even if you don't believe in God, it's blatantly obvious that homosexuality is a dead end and makes no sense whatsoever in the natural world - it's a easy candidate for non-survival of the 'least fit' for all of you natural selection fans.
I will admit there are some that have inclinations towards that behavior, in a similar way that others have a hard time with anger management, alcoholism, or pedophilia. However, that doesn't justify 'giving in' to that temptation.

Andy, what are you basing that assertion on? Your gut feeling? Do you give in to the temptation to be straight? Do you feel tempted to sleep with men? If not, why do you assume that homosexuals aren't just as certain and steady in their sexuality?

Amy,
I'm not tempted to be straight just like I'm not 'tempted' to be polite to others. I'm not saying it's a choice akin to choosing to put on a red shirt instead of a green shirt. I'm saying they are choosing to give in to the temptation similar to choosing to yell or hit someone out of anger. The 'urges' may be innate, but that doesn't mean they should embrace them or we as a society should celebrate it.

Not a choice. Hardwired at conception to be what you are. This coming from a Catholic.

John B,
Are pedophiles and polygomists 'hardwired' as well?

Andy:
I'm of the opinion that polygamists do so by choice. They are not hard wired it's more akin to the alpha male syndrome. Pedophiles on the other hand are hardwired to do or like something that is very unnatural and vile. You have to be hardwired for that type of sickness (IMHO). The only choice I see for pedophiles is the choice to act or not on their desires.

Why not? Gay people have loving long term relationships just like straight people. Why shouldn't that be celebrated? You may think it is not natural or immoral but that is just your lack of empathy. Why is following your "innate urge" to be with a partner of the same sex in a CONSENTING RELATIONSHIP necessarily a bad thing.

I cap'ed consenting relationship because I know what your next argument will be. Pedophillic urges are wrong because the target of those urges is incapable of consent. We rightly condemn any such act because of the damage it causes to the child involved.

Amy,
It sounds like you'd support legalizing/legitimizing all "victimless" crimes, such as drugs and prostitution? These behaviors are illegal for a reason. Our wiser forebearers knew that these immoral "victimless" activites degrade society.
One example would be adoption. Any counselor or psychologist would tell you that the best environment for a child is a household with a MOTHER and a FATHER - not two mommies or two daddies. This child will grow up unbalanced and ultimately a victim.

Prostitution and drug abuse do have victims. We outlaw them for the same reason we mandate motorcycle helmets and seatbelts. "For your own good" laws. These are very grey areas though. Some countries have had success with limited and regulated legalization of drugs and prostitution.

As for your completely baseless comment about same sex parenting, Here are the results of just one study I found with a quick google search. So much for "any psychologist will tell you"...

This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. opposite-sex parents); family and relationship variables; and the psychosocial adjustment, school outcomes, and romantic attractions and behaviors of adolescents. Participants included 44 12- to 18-year-old adolescents parented by same-sex couples and 44 same-aged adolescents parented by opposite-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Normative analyses indicated that, on measures of psychosocial adjustment and school outcomes, adolescents were functioning well, and their adjustment was not generally associated with family type. Assessments of romantic relationships and sexual behavior were not associated with family type. Regardless of family type, adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported better school adjustment.

Amy, research can work both ways...

The first place I went, here's what I found...

What about the effect of homosexual behavior on society?

In addition to a domestic violence rate that is 20 times higher than among heterosexuals, these are some of the negative effects homosexuality has on society:

Daughters of lesbian "parents" are more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior and experience the consequences of that behavior.

Children of homosexual "parents" do the worst in 9 of 13 acedemic categories when compared with both married heterosexual couples and cohabitating couples.

Homosexual behavior is linked with higher rates of promiscuity, physical disease, mental illness, substance abuse, child sexual abuse and domestic violence--all things that impact society negatively. Don't try to say homosexual behavior doesn't hurt society--it is a major force that tears down society and harms children.

This from the American Academy of Pediatrics: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/2/341.short

A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.

Still further evidence that good outcomes for children come from having loving parents REGARDLESS of the gender of those parents.

Andy, can you please cite your source?

Andy,

Care to share the source of that whargarbbll? Thanks

I might ask what you propose to do with all these gay people that God keeps making? Shall we go all "Leviticus " on them ?

You will notice, I have cited articles from respected, unbiased, scientific sources.

One of the problems with your argument is that there are already many scouts and scout leaders who are gay. Just like there were many gay service people in the military despite the ban on gays in the military. Also, its funny how you automatically assume gay means fem. You know about 50% of homosexual men are masculine right? They wouldn't like flower arranging or hair-dressing any more than any other straight boy.

Amy,
What do the "experts" say about pedophiles? Why are some adults 'driven' to pedophilia and others are not? Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying pedophilia and homosexuality are the same. What I am saying is they are similar in that they are both obviously not normal behavior. I am also saying that my theory is that while some may have those urges, urges alone don't justify acting out on those urges.

How are they similar? One involves mutual consent between people who share an attraction. The other is predatory, non-consensual, and the attraction is not shared.

Amy,
They are similar in that they both defy natural order. I will agree one is victimless and the other is not (however, I'm sure NAMBLA would have a different opinion on that). They are also similar in that they are perversions on how our bodies were designed.
I will also state that most people practicing sexually deviant behavior (homosexuality, pedophiila, beastiality, etc...) were themselves either sexually abused as children or had a detrimential family life growing up. This behavior is a less than ideal way to respond to the past abuses.

Nice post!

What you state is an unfortunate consequence of our more permissive society. The more we as a society embrace this behavior and try to justify that it's innate, the more it eliminates hope from people with these urges that there's a way out. If they're continually told that they were born that way, why try to fight it. They then are "forced" to swim upstream against what is "normal" and thus have many difficulties. We are now approaching a tipping point where society is trying to change that stream so that it's not alternative lifestyles going upstream but now traditionalists.

That is the way it has worked for all of human history. It is called progress. Old ideas die out with those who stick to them beyond all reason. 50 years ago, we were all having this argument about including black people in our white only schools, lunch counters, restrooms, etc...

Andy,
Maybe traditionalists need to quit worrying about which way people are swimming in the stream. Your fear of change is forcing you upstream. Do you want a way out from the color of your skin (whatever lovely shade that may be)? The history books are full of stories of people being oppressed because of their race. Imagine if society never woke up to that nonsense. You are fighting a non-winning fight, Andy. Gay people don't need to find a way out of their "urges", I think that society needs to rethink giving into the urge to oppress people who are different from them. Just a thought and one that I hope you would open your heart to consider.

With the exception of racial inequality (which was most definitely wrong and unjust), I would say there has been no moral progress. I would much prefer living in the 1950's when I could turn on the TV and let my kids watch Leave it to Beaver and not Modern Family, when over 1 millions innocent babies weren't being killed each year, when I didn't have to shield my 9 year old daughter and 7 year old son's eyes from pornographic magazines at the gas station or near pornographic (Cosmo) at the grocery store, when I didn't have to walk past dozens of signs in the WalMart entry way of kids who are missing b/c they were stolen for indecent purposes, most likely by crazed sex addicts that needed to feed their temptation...

What you call progress, I call depravity of civilization.

You aren't interpreting the evidence differently. You are ignoring the evidence in favor of your own belief. Are you one of those who believe that educated people like the ones at the APA and AMA linked above are just elitist liberals with an agenda? Is that how you dismiss their findings on the origin of sexuality? If so, then yes... you are close minded and nothing anyone says will ever change that.

Amy:
Unfair of you to call Andy close minded because his moral compass and yours does not align. Two different perspectives that's all.

If it were just me arguing against him, you would be right. It is however, him vs all the people who have studied this issue who make up the AAP, AMA, and APA. That is why I can call him close minded. He refuses to acknowledge and intelligently refute the points I have made. He always retreats back to something like "its just wrong".

"It's wrong" to him because that's what his moral compass (inner core) is telling him. Trying to change that is like telling folks to change their sexual orientation. Same thing right?

Opinions change, sexual orientation does not. His best friend could come out to him as gay tomorrow and Andy would hopefully realize that his OPINION about gays has been wrong all along.

I think Andy's perspective is a little deeper than opinion. Yes, opinions change but I'm guessing it's more driven by his morals/values. They don't change so easily.

An individuals personal morals and values cannot and should not be applied to other individuals who may not share them .

Agreed Grant...it works both ways.

i've seen the video several months ago and he's obviously an intelligent, confident and passionate young man.

I'm really happy that you can see that, Andy. It gives me a sliver of hope that you can see that some good can come into this world as a result of homosexuality.

Amy,
The websites may have an agenda; however the studies do not. I don't think Louisianna State University and the University of Texas have an agenda (if so, please explain). Additionally, one of the main findings of the studies was discrediting the one from the APA that you cited..

Sounds like you're intolerant of Christians Eve. Funny how you paint them with a broad brush but you're not a bigot correct? The only bigots you know are the one's that don't agree with your perspective.

eve (amy, jesse and anyone else i have left out), you have all done a commendable job trying to inform/educate/open the minds of john b and others like him. and you have provided such irrefutable and unbiased sources and offered such clear and thoughtful ideas to this debate. but the truth be told, the type of people who turn the word "tolerance" into some wicked work of the devil being imposed upon them will never understand. they do not walk in the footsteps of jesus, although they can certainly be considered sheep. their day of reckoning will come, their membership accepted or revoked, though probably not on the factors they considered important. maybe someone reading this who didn't chime in was questioning their pre-fab beliefs, and your intelligent discourse helped open another perspective. but these folks on this thread don't have a clue about the big wide world at their doorstep. it's so funny (i.e.ironic) to hear self-proclaimed christians go on about tolerance when their own religion's origins were once secreted away from the intolerance of the day, their own religions "lifestyle" questioned as an abomination or suspicious. just as homosexuality has had to exist in the shadows, so once did christianity. the really funny thing to me is that religion is more of a "choice" than sexuality. but there we go again, speaking in terms of rational, intelligent, and tolerant. don't get me wrong john b and others, i tolerate your beliefs just barely. your money's green too.

Hi Risa:
Let me start by presenting you with the same Mensa challenge as I did with Jesse and she failed to answer. Find one of my posts in this thread that's anti-LGBT. You're just another activist who gets caught up in blind rage or better yet just a sheep. For your edification, I support the LGBT community in their quest to find equal footing. That said, I choose not to bash or paint others with a broad brush who aren't aligned with your vision. You (activists) are quick to look for a fight not to fight the fight and subsequently your message becomes distorted and diluted. Now, I can assume you won't be sending me a Christmas card this year either?

The bible is not an excuse for bigotry and hate. Religious bigotry and hate is still bigotry and hate. It really does not matter what the source is. Don’t make excuses for homophobia that you wouldn’t make for racism. Just imagine a Christian saying:
I have a deep conviction in the authority of the Bible. And the Bible clearly approves of slavery, and in fact commands it in some cases (Exodus 22:3; Deuteronomy 20:10-11, 14). Furthermore, I belive, based on Genesis 9:25-27, that the descendants of Ham are to be the slaves of the descendants of Shem and Japheth, and after deep reflection I’ve concluded that Africans are the modern-day descendants of Ham. So please don’t call my support for enslaving Africans bigotry. It’s not. It is a working out of deep convictions.

Oh...just to clarify, I am a straight married woman who happens to love all people. So, I am fighting a fight that's not even mine. I hope that more people will get involved and support the LGBT community, even if they aren't directly affected by it. Because this world belongs to ALL of us, not just the straight people who walk the straight and narrow.

Read your post again Eve. I'm done with you. You're a lost cause. I'm moving on to Jesse now.

I don't think it's hard to understand...just not universally accepted as you can see by the posts in this thread.

NGW- As usual, we are in agreement. We are raising a nation of spineless whiners. We even elected one as President.

"'Observe my regulations. "'Don't let your livestock mate with those of another kind, don't sow your field with two different kinds of grain, and don't wear a garment of cloth made with two different kinds of thread." (Leviticus 19:19)

"Don't round your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27)"

"'A person who curses his father or mother must be put to death; having cursed his father or his mother, his blood is on him." (Leviticus 20:9)

21:17 "Tell Aharon, 'None of your descendants who has a defect may approach to offer the bread of his God.
21:18 No one with a defect may approach - no one blind, lame, with a mutilated face or a limb too long,
(Leviticus 21:17-18)

Lev 25:44 "'Concerning the men and women you may have as slaves: you are to buy men- and women-slaves from the nations surrounding you.

How are you doing holding to these other laws from Leviticus?

I assume by "if they find out your gay or the other kids do they will throw blanket partys for u" you mean that any kid suspected of being gay would get beaten...

So scouts are "reverent" but would also gang up on and beat up someone because you question their sexuality?

Scouts acknowledge faith in GOD, but by their practice don’t adhere strictly or solely to Christian tenet values.

Depending on the location, troops and districts are comprised of many or even a majority who claim Christianity. Fine line to be sure BUT it’s solid; similar to the one found in the (gasp) Masonic Lodges, a theme for another discussion.

lol...Ok Jesse.

I'll just copy/paste my earlier comment since you obviously didn't read it. Please attempt to come up with an intelligent response...

We as a society establish academies and associations of the various sciences so that we can come to a general consensus about what we should study and what we think our results from that study mean. We need this consensus to define our policy on issues that affect our daily lives. Every association of medical and scientific professionals have said that sexual orientation is not a choice. Yes, some individuals have written papers that seem to find otherwise, but they are a vanishingly small minority.

My main point is this: If the consensus of the people who study this issue is that sexual orientation is not a choice, then is it really morally responsible to deny homosexuals ANY freedom given to straight people? Especially since homosexual people are ALREADY included in these groups as long as they keep silent about their orientation? Why should we ban otherwise successful scouts, den mothers, and scout leaders only because we find out they were gay all along?

Amy, I have nothing against gays. In fact, I think gays have a long row to hoe and I know life is tougher for them, I do feel for them.
I don't have any religious objections, I just reserve my right to choose who my son has as role models.
Life is not fair and any Academy or Associations of various scientists who try to tell you it is are just blowing smoke up your skirt.
Good luck in your endeavors, I wish you all the best.

I feel as if I am being trolled but I will respond anyway for the benefit of the others reading this...

You obviously have no understanding of the peer review process. A "few" gay researchers can't just "write a paper" and change the entire collective opinion of our scientific community. First of all, those "papers" have to have real science to back them up before they ever get published and taken seriously. Secondly, the conclusions reached have to be repeated many, many times by many independent researchers. That is how scientific research is done.

Your second "point" about diseases is just your own bigotry talking. You most likely live and or work with someone who is gay. There was probably a gay boy in your scout troop. People like you always assume homosexual men are all limp wristed sissies who will be obvious to spot because they are more feminine. Most gay men are actually slightly MORE masculine than the average straight man. Mike Horsman said above that he didn't want his kids earning hairdressing or flower arranging badges. This attempted dig is just laughable. Do you really think the more feminine boys will be the ones who even want to be scouts?

There are already gay scouts. Gay people already serve as counselors, den mothers, scout leaders. All they want is to not have to fear that some inadvertent facebook post will get them outed and thrown out of an organization that they love.

Do you seriously believe that a person breathing on you can give you AIDS or STD's? You can't be fore real, if you really believe this, you have to be the most uneducated and ignorant person on the planet. What year is it in your world? Did you hit your head recently, do you need someone to call help for you? For God's sake, educate yourself...

http://www.aids.org/topics/aids-faqs/how-is-hiv-transmitted/

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke [reason with] thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." (Leviticus 19: 17-18)

So much for those "blanket parties".

LOL!!! And what did you win?

I hereby declare you irrelevant and nonexistent and void your victory. Sorry, its not a choice; I was born this way. I can't help voiding victories. It's in my nature. I'll write a paper and have it published if I need to prove it.

The winner received the coveted "Legend in their OWN Mind" award...
(Smiles)

Sad but your son will miss a lot opportunities based on this choice.

But I admit, I stopped supporting the United Way when it attempted to force its view of the world on the scouts. It’s one thing to support charitable groups, it’s quite another entirely to force policy.

What if instead of banning gays, the scouts banned everyone who is left handed? Would left handed boys who wanted to scout be welcome to form their own club? Does a world in which we have separate clubs for right and left handed boy scouts really sound like a good idea to you?

Do you really think it is right for scouts, scout leaders, counselors, etc who love and support the BSA, but are outed by accident or malice, to be kicked out just because they don't bat for the right team?

If I am "grasping at straws" it should be easy for you to provide a reasoned rebuttal. Why even bother posting at all if you are only willing to say, " I disagree with you but am unwilling or unable to provide any useful argument."

Here's a reasoned rebuttal for you Amy: The Bible is the Word of God. End of conversation.

Which bible? The current one? The one that has been heavily revised, redacted, and mistranslated? The one that so obviously has no problem with slavery, genocide, and torture? If you were an all powerful, all knowing being, would you really allow your one and only instruction manual for your creations to be so dismally awful?

David I have news for you the BSA is not a Christian Organization. I am a practicing Witch and have been a Scout Master for over 30 years. The BSA does not care what religion you practice as long as you beleve in some sort of higher power. We do not teach the bible but encourage the boys to grow in their own faith. I do not discriminate and would accept any boy into my troop regardless of their faith or sexual orientation. What the Boy Scouts does teach is to respect the religious beliefs of others. So if you are looking for a Christian group for your son maybe you would be more comfortable sending your son to Bible Camp.

Then let it fix itself. Your approach is not working.

How did you come to the conclusion that it is not working? The continued obstinacy of a couple of people posting relatively weak arguments gives no insight into the opinions of those who are just reading without posting. I know that it is very unlikely that I will change anyone's mind who feels strongly enough to post about it.

Amy:
You're of the opinion that you've moved the gay acceptance needle for those who aren't posting? I'm thining just the opposite. Your approach is akin to force feeding a kid to eat liver. Here is a quote from Tammy above. "Amazing that those who holler so much about rights are the very ones who want to violate those who exercise theirs." That's the fundamental issue and probably why you get so much push back even from those who may support the same cause.

I'm pretty sure white people were pretty ticked off when their "right" to sit at the front of the bus or keep black people out of their businesses was "violated."

Sexual orientation is much the same as race or handedness. And before you make the "false equivalency" argument again, I think the lack of any coherent thought from my opponents in the "it's a lifestyle choice" argument several posts above demonstrates how weak a case they have.

Amy,
I completely agree with your stated positions and I think you are doing an outstanding job of supporting those positions with facts and evidence .

The fact remains , however that the BSA is a PRIVATE CLUB and , as such has the right to deny membership to whomever they wish on whatever criteria they choose to set. Indeed they could bar entry to lefties if they chose to .

Sorry Amy but another dumb analogy. The fact is no one will be able to post anything that contradicts your stand that will sound remotely intelligent to you because...well it doesn't support your cause. It's apparent that you are surrounded by idiots. You have already claimed victory.......so what's left for you to accomplish?

Brilliant response John,
Completely devoid of any sort of evidence or even any attempt at intelligent discourse with a healthy dose of pointless name calling as a cherry on top .

Might I ask what you feel is accomplished by that?

The BSA still receives preferential treatment by the government. For instance, they receive reduced or waived fees for use of government land and buildings. Most of the direct support has been stamped out, but they aren't entirely private.

Hi Grant:
Name calling? Reading is fundamental. No name calling in my reply to Amy. Now, if I called you a dolt because you lack in comprehension skills that would be name calling. I certainly wouldn't do that.

John B writes

"It's apparent that you are surrounded by idiots. "

I'll skip the apology thanks

Have a nice day

Grant:
I consider Amy intelligent and articulate even if I don't agree with her convictions but only an idiot would consider "someone being surrounded by idiots" as name calling. No apology here. Have a spendid day. And please don't try to help Amy, she is doing fine without you.

Grant,
You misunderstood what he meant with the "idiots" comment. He thinks that I am sitting here all smug and superior and nothing anyone says that contradicts my worldview has any value. That is simply not true. I am attempting to have an intelligent conversation. People keep throwing up strawmen, red herrings, and attacking me. It is hard to not let a little of my frustration with this show.

Amy:
Thanks for dumbing it down for Grant. Sometimes his chin strap is buckled too tight. No apology needed Grant.
Anyway, your assesement is spot on. That said, I think the same of those who are on the opposite side of the aisle. Bottom line is it's difficult to have "intelligent" discussions when subjects are inherently controversial and subsequently bring out a lot emotion. Some are better than others but I think you've admitted sometimes even the most level headed and even tempered person can get sucked into the fray?

Lol NJ...now my ribs are hurting...!

RE: "I also believe in straight rights."

I wasn't aware that there were any "straight rights." What straight rights are others trying to infringe upon? As a straight man, I'm incensed.

By not shopping, joining, or donating to an organization, and encouraging others to do likewise, then I'm infringing on their right to exist?

If I decide not to purchase Dixie Chicks music because of a few choice words that they made before an audience, then I'm infringing on the right of a private organization to exist? If I decide to shop at Lowe's instead of Home Depot because Home Depot supports gay marriage rights, then I'm infringing on the right of a private organization to exist?

Or do you have a double standard? One for organizations and causes that you support and another for organizations and causes that you oppose?

"Boycott growing: 500,000 pledge to boycott The Home Depot": http://www.afa.net/Detail.aspx?id=2147504058

Whoa big boy. I believe I worded my response improperly. Let's try this:
They are declaring the right of a private organization to exist based on a set of moral and religious principles that have been in place since day one to be wrong, which is to deny the BSA's rights to their own beliefs.
Y'alll keep it up though. Chik-fil-a has enjoyed an enormous amount of popularity since this was tried with them, making them stronger than ever. The same result will come for the BSA from all this whining as well.

Re: "They are declaring the right of a private organization to exist based on a set of moral and religious principles that have been in place since day one to be wrong, which is to deny the BSA's rights to their own beliefs."

Pro-gay rights advocates are declaring the "right of a private organization to exist...is wrong?" Pro-gay rights advocates are denying the BSA the "rights to their own beliefs?"

Applying your logic, anti-gay rights advocates have declared that the "right of a private organization [Home Depot] to exist is wrong." Anti-gay rights advocates are denying the Home Depot the "right to their own beliefs?"

Whoa big boy. You can't have it both ways.

http://www.dumpgeneralmills.com/?REF=EB120625NANT

http://www.afa.net/Detail.aspx?id=2147526078

C.J.- This discussion is about the BSA, not Home Depot. Again, please boycott the BSA, that would be awesome. It'll give the BSA a great boost, just like Chik-fil-a.

Amy:
So should we lump Muslims under the same umbrellas as Christians and label them as intolerant? Just checking.

The fact that you discredit her argument doesn't make it discredited. If everyone but you accepts it, would you still consider it discredited? Yes, because you are very close minded on the issue (bigoted?).

Why are you so angry, Amy? I realize its difficult to read emotions in electronic postings but without a doubt, everything you post seems filled with hate. Lighten up. You're not going to sway the 98.3%. Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you.

RE: "Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you."

I agree. Who cares if women use abortion as a form of birth control? They're not my children. Who cares if Iran gets a nuclear weapon and blows Israel off the map? I don't live there. Hell, I'm not even Jewish.

Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you. Best advice I've heard in a long time.

CJ, that doesn't even make sense. How does maintaining a rule concerning gays in the BSA relate to mass murder and world war?

David,
He is pointing out the irony of conservatives railing against government intervention except when it is to support causes they care about.

How are they related? Neither discrimination of gays in the Boy Scouts, nor mass murder of Jews in Israel affects me. You specifically said, "Quit worrying about something that doesn't even affect you."

Amy, name calling never got anyone anywhere and as a reply it does not work here, either. If God, who created you and me, intended man to marry a woman, there is nothing "tired" about it.

You sound very defensive about gays. Why is that?

Allison,

Interesting . Tell me , why does God keep making all of these gay people?

Amy:
Can I assume you're an atheist?

Of course. Se my post concerning the difference between Deism and Theism. No one can disprove a "prime mover", but there is no reason to believe anything beyond that.

You didn't make the comment, but you defended Allison's assertion that allowing gays would mean more danger for her kids.

I think you are confusing anger with exasperation. It is tiresome to refute the same arguments time after time. I'd like to have a real discussion but it seems all you can do is question my state of mind and motives. How about actually trying to frame a convincing argument that isn't just an attack on the messenger so to speak.

Uh, Venturing? Leadership role in the pack or troop? Plenty of opportunities for females to join the BSA. Are you worried about your sons going camping with women and girls?

"I am not anti-gay. One of the nicest bosses I ever had was gay, but I would not send my son out on a camping trip with him. I want my son to be straight."

So you still believe homosexuality is a choice? Why do you believe that anyone can change the sex that they are attracted to? Are you aware that the science on this issue does not support that opinion? I believe you are the one who missed a big point. Try hitting page up a few times.

"It isn't about pedophilia. It's about being straight."

Then why even mention pedophilia in your first post?

"I would not send my boys on a camping trip with a black man."

See what I did there?

I assume you are referring to the "Gay Days" celebration that has been going on at Disney World in Orlando since 1990. I had to google it. What do you really think is more likely: That people who are ordinarily unable to publicly express affection for each other go to this party with thousands of like minded people and go a little crazy to blow off some steam? Or, as you said in your post above, they "misbehave publicly" because they always "make it about sex?"

You have the privilege of walking down the street holding hands with your partner without having to worry about someone driving by screaming ugliness at you just for who you are. You don't have to worry that a picture of you at a party just kissing someone might get you fired from your job. If you really know people who are gay then why does your empathy for them stop at only feeling sorry for the prejudice they face?

Just going to copy/paste my earlier post here since it is relevant to her point and I am feeling lazy:

"You guys are really stupid if you think that the current ban on gays is really keeping them out of the scouts. It is true that some will avoid the BSA because they want to make a statement about not supporting it, but I feel many just join anyway and take their chances with discovery. The organization does a lot of very good things and people want to be a part of that. The only thing that will change when the BSA stops banning gays is that the gays ALREADY IN THE SCOUTS will no longer have to be afraid that they will be kicked out."

I re-posted this because it illustrates why the handedness argument is relevant. Lets say the BSA had a ban on left handed people. Hypothetical left handed kid REALLY wants to join boy scouts because his brother was an eagle scout or something. He could practice like hell at pretending to be right handed and possibly become almost as good. He would still be left handed though. He would have to constantly fear that a thoughtless gesture would "out" him and get him banned.

"Handedness and race have nothing behavioral to cause anyone to shun them."
If you really believe gay people deserve what they get because they make other people uncomfortable just by being who they are then we really don't have anything more to say to each other.

Heterosexuals don't talk around talking about their sex life or inject it into every conversation. Obviously you have never been camping with 20 boys that all they talk about. The boys forget that tent walls do not stop sound when you listen to them at night all they talk about is their girlfrends.

Yeah ...
Are you ctually reading what you write at this point Tammy?

It's a good thing heterosexuals have NEVER acted inappropriately in public. That NEVER happens but if it did it would make all heterosexuals look bad and cause issues for other heterosexuals who had nothing to do with those inappropriate acts..
Do you see the folly in your attempt at cogent argument? Or shall I further illustrate the apparent disconnect by providing links to a few hundred instances of public sexual misconduct by heteros?

Interesting (but rather typical of you) that you have a token gay friend who talks about sex all the time and you conclude from that that it is some sort of trait shared by all homosexuals.

Thanks Allison and thanks to everyone for reading and joining in the discussion. With the exception of a few wackadoo intense exchanges, I think that many of you have held down some amazing and respectable debates. My hope was to get people talking and you guys have certainly hit this from almost every angle. Thanks again for all the comments.

This ban is not just about gay scout leaders but gay scouts as well don't you think they could benifit from the values scouting teaches? "The BSA is a time honored American tradition." so was slavery to bad the Far Left cry babies ruined that too Mike.

Well, if that "morraly straight" scout was illiterate, he has probably failed at everything in life.

Scouts succeed from intellect and knowing the correct reaction in any given situation. You, clearly have not the intellect nor common sense of a scout. For these reasons, the scouts would prefer that you no longer speak on their behalf going forward.

Good Day Sir!

Morally straight means not discriminating against someone just because you disagree with them, because they are a different race, religion or anything else. Morally straight means accepting people who are different and that you disagree with. Morally straight is also spelled with one r in morally.

Obviously the Scouts should report any kind of abuse to authorities.
As far as discrimination goes, the Scouts are taking boys and helping to teach them how to be men, not pansies.
Gays, have fun, knock yourselves out, most people don't care one way or the other, but there is one great truth that can never be ignored:
If you are going to march to the beat of a different drum, you have to stay out of the parade.

As a Scoutmaster let me set this straight the BSA is not a Christian organization and is open to boys of all faiths and is in no way based on the bible. The only religious requirement is that they believe in some sort of higher power everything else is between the boy and his god. Part of being a Scout is respecting the rights of other scouts to believe what they want. Don't forget not all Religions consider homosexulaty to be a sin not even all denominations of Christianity feel it is a sin.

thcooper69- Your spelling, grammar and punctuation are atrocious. No matter what you write, you are going to look ignorant unless you get it together. Please tell me you are in the second grade.

Maureenfh that kind of neanderthal behaviour would not be tolerated in any Scout Troop that I know of. This goes against everything the Boy Scouts stand for.